My First time, 211e RR

Hello Everyone,

My name is Jocelyne. I just found out a few days ago that my grand father was in a camp.
My mother is an orphan, so we do not have any information. I am seeking ANYTHING possible
about: Frontstalag 152, and Unit 211e R.R. Grade: 2e cl.

I also would very much appreciate if anyone could direct me to get information about all the children
that ended up in orphanages?.

My family is from Paris, France. I've never been there, I live in Montreal Quebec Canada.
I cannot discuss these things with my mother (72 yrs old) she gets very upset.

I have been able to get my mother's parents marriage certificate, but nothing else.
My mother receives a pension from France here in Canada, and the paper work says "Mort pour la France".

That's all I know.

Thank you    Jocelyne Gerlach Lhuillier

hello

so you are from the 20% of non-french speaking people of Québec even if you have french blood 

with my clumsy english that are the few datas I can share :

the unit is the 211^ème Régiment Régional a kind of Parisian static territorial unit raised from older reservists in september 1939 for the defence of Paris, more exactly the northwestern sector :
https://atf40.1fr1.net/t8440-211e-regiment-regional
of course with the nazi german invasion and occupation reaching Paris the 14th june 1940 the regiment saw actions and men were captured in the Dept of Loiret in Loury not very far from Pithiviers the 17th june 1940

so that explains in the same area the Frontstalag 152 in Pithiviers, Dept of Loiret,
the Fronstalags are POW's camps or baracks in occupied France for the French POW's but it was only a first step for them for the first weeks or months, after the French were usually sent to the stalags in Germany and the Frontstalags reserved for the indigenous colonials or French mulattos or blacks citizens (West Indies Guyane Réunion...) POW's because the germans didn't want to them on their own soil

Regards
Loïc

Good evening Jocelyne

If you have any official document regarding your grandfather, would you mind disclosing his first name, and possibly place and date of birth? There is an official "site" allowing informations, unfortunately exclusively in french.
If confidential and if trust me, you can reply by use of "mp" : private message.
Have a nice evening.
Bernard

Thank you very much to both of you,  Loïc Lillian and Bernrd Dodne.
I have been researching for a long time. I really appreciate your help. 


Merci  Jocelyne

Hi and welcome,

As I see, your questions are starting to find answers. I hope this will be always like that.

Regards

Hi Eric,

Thank you, yes I'm starting to get some understanding.
I have so many questions, I just want to understand why my mother ended up spending
her whole life in an orpahanage, and why I can't find anything about her mother.
It seems as if she never existed, I can't find her name anywhere.
I will continue searching....

Merci    Jocelyne

allô kurly.

your mother was not "pupille de la nation"?

Pupille de la nation? Yes I think so!

Good morning Kurly2970,

Welcome your international forum.

Best Regards,

Marcos.


Brazil.

Thank you Marcos.

Hello Everyone,
I previously wrote in this forum asking information about my grandfather's Unit 211e R.R. Grade: 2e cl. I received a lot of help from your members and I wanted to say thank you. I was recently sent this military record about my grandfather I am not sure what it says but maybe it can explain a little more about this unit. I know my grandfather was in this unit during world war II I've been told that this might have been a reserve unit I think but I am not sure that this image is his record in world war I.
Thank you
Jocelyne

Hello Jocelyne,

This document is his entire military record, there are lots of details but the writing is sometimes difficult to read.

Your grand father went into the army at the very end of WW1 (May 1918) and probably didn't took part in the fightings. It seems he went to Poland in 1919-1920.
Between the wars, he was for a time in the Colonial Troops, then in the French Foreign Legion. He traveled a lot : China? (not sure), Algeria, Morroco.
He left the army in 1934-35, it seems he had a discipline problem.
Just before WW2, while being again in the army, he had a job (in a color factory?). Lots of soldiers were in this situation, they were called "affectés spéciaux", which means "special assignees" (officially in the army, but still working, for example in weapon factories).
As said before, he was taken prisoner at Loury on 17th June 1940.
After the camp in France, he went in Stalag "VIII C" in Germany, nowadays Poland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_VIII-C). He went perhaps in other stalags, but it's not written here.
"2952" (or "2962"?) was his prisoner number.
He was released on 25th July 1941, something that would be quite logical if he was married and had children, and certainly returned to France.

It seems he had no contact with the army anymore after that, but in the lower-right corner of the document, one can maybe read "24-11-44" which would be the date he was finally released from his military duty.

Loïc Mahé

I received this birth certificate of my mother's sister but my mother did not know she existed I guess it's because my mother was sent to the orphanage in 1947 the death dates for her sister are very strange in that same document is the date of my grandfather's death

Décédé à Champcueil (Seine) le 13 Juillet 1944.

This is his information during his time as a POW. This is where I found that he was in unit Unit 211e R.R. Grade: 2e cl.

My search for information about my grandfather and many more very close family that have disappeared is not over.
I would just like to thank everyone in this group for all of your help. This has been a long journey.

Et juste pour vous laisser savoir que oui je parle français mais j'écris pas le français du tout aussi bien comme vous alors c'est ça la raison pourquoi j'écris en anglais.
Jocelyne Gerlach Lhuillier

Hello Jocelyne,

Bravo pour votre français!

Considering the dates, your grandfather probably didn't know about this posthumous daughter.

The second document is intriguing, since it states that your grandfather would have disappeared ("disparu") from the frontstalag 152 (Pithiviers) in France on 16th October 1940. Maybe disappeared ("disparu") means here that on this day he began his journey to Germany?

One can also note that, although he had a very long military career with overseas campaigns, your grandfather was still a "soldat de 2e classe", which means he had no rank at all! This seems consistent with his discipline problem, since you can read in his military record:
- engagement refused by disciplinary action (1934)
- "certificate of good conduct" denied twice (1925 and 1935); this document is given to a soldier when he comes back to civilian life and may help him to find a job

Good luck for your further research.

Loïc

Thank you very much! My next step is finding out what happened to my grandmother after her 4 children were put in an orphanage in Beçanson. My mother never saw her again.

Bonsoir,

Il semble que les problèmes aillent plus loin que de simples soucis de discipline. En effet, dans la période où il est réserviste avant son engagement à la Légion étrangère, il est affecté à un groupe spécial puis à un Bataillon d'infanterie légère, ce qui fait fortement soupçonner une condamnation.

Cordialement,
DH

Bonsoir,

C'est bien vu.
Une telle condamnation (si elle avait été prononcée par la justice militaire) ne figurerait-elle pas dans son livret militaire ?
Mais celui-ci n'est peut-être pas composé de cette seule page ?
En tout cas, avoir changé aussi souvent d'unité laisse supposer qu'il avait des difficultés à se faire accepter, au minimum.

Pas nécessairement.

Il est d'abord affecté au 28e Bataillon de chasseurs à pied, puis est volontaire pour la Pologne, et de ce fait affecté au 124e RI. Il reste en Pologne un peu plus d'un an, ce qui me semble être la durée normale du séjour. (Par exemple, le premier séjour en Pologne de Charles de Gaulle dure environ 1 an)

Troupes coloniales

Son passage dans les troupes coloniales est certainement dû à un acte de volontariat pour les troupes coloniales, et son corps de rattachement dépend probablement d'abord du territoire pour lequel il est volontaire, c'est-à-dire la Chine : le 1er RIC est son corps initial d'affectation en France, le 16e RIC est le corps qui est affecté en Chine, le passage de l'un à l'autre est probablement administratif, puisqu'il fait partie des services généraux (le passage par le dépôt des isolé coloniaux est normal).

Son séjour fini, il est affecté au 53e BMM. Le passage par un corps différent au terme d'un séjour outre-mer n'a rien d'inhabituel.

Légion étrangère

Vient ensuite l'épisode où il se retrouve affecté en cas de mobilisation à un Bataillon d'infanterie légère, puis il s'engage à la Légion : tous les engagés commencent à Sidi-bel-Abbès au 1er REI, avant d'être affectés à un régiment, pour lui le 4e, au Maroc.

Ces mutations diverses témoignent pour une part, davantage de choix que de mauvais comportements. Ce sont, comme vous l'avez fait remarquer, le grade de 2e classe, le refus par 2 fois du certificat de bonne conduite qui montrent les difficultés avec la discipline, et la résiliation du contrat de la Légion, pour finir, évidemment... 

Cordialement,
DH